On Frost
Self-justification and the path you've chosen
The poem was interesting because it was immediately relevant to my life.
I had a conversation with my girlfriend as we were reading it, which was a lovely way to spark a deeper conversation about the myth of American individualism. And then all week I've been having conversations with my friends about the common misreading of it, how both roads were really the same, and how the poem is kind of poking fun at the self-justification of the path you've chosen.
My one friend has a kid, I do not. My friend who has a kid will look back and say this was the only road he could possibly take, that even though the first year was, in his words, a crucible, it changed him for the better and he's more in touch with the human condition tm. And my coworker in his forties, who doesn't have kids, is the same way in reverse. He's like, "I could never have a kid, we've already decided no kids, it's too late for her at least, and we wouldn't trade it for the world. We're traveling to Iceland, we're doing this and this and this." So they were both able to split it that way. It seems to be part of human nature to self-justify the path they've taken.
Is that a bad thing? Should we narrativize our life like that, or will you be missing out, pompous, focused on the wrong things?
It reminds me of one time with my cousin. I think it was the only time I've ever seen him get slightly emotional. Two of his friends had kids and he and his wife weren't having kids, and he was kind of like, "what, am I missing out?" You could tell he had a bit of something there.
Where I sit in this pattern: when I was younger the idea was to move and live abroad. The idea is still to do that, but first to save up money, get out of student loans, then further the path and move abroad somewhere, get out of the rat race. The threshold keeps moving. We're always one mile away.
I think that's going to be the case for a while. The alternative I've chosen is to try to enjoy the routine and to "travel while I'm here" in Philadelphia. At least that's what I tell myself.
On Thoreau
Walking, knowledge, and fences
Walking was good and bad.
There was a lot of American chauvinism that I didn't particularly like, but it was such a different time that it was probably hard to not be an American chauvinist being in America in the 1850s. The whole idea of walking west into nature, that resilient through line where societies are corrupt and corrupted, where the closer we get to society the more corrupt we are, and the closer we are to nature the closer we are to real knowledge, that landed.
I really liked his whole thing on different types of knowledge. The one that stuck with me was, would you rather be with someone who didn't know anything and wanted to learn everything, or someone who knew a lot but thought he already knew everything?
I also liked the idea of having to get into the woods and outside of yourself, that you have to leave the city behind you to actually be able to walk. I've been thinking about that a lot as I've been walking around Philadelphia. My mind is still on work, or on home, or on some deadlock, or on some other thing. How can you actually separate yourself and get to a spot where you're free from that? I'm not sure.
I also really liked the diatribe on fences and breaking down fences. (Side note: the famous line about the first man who put up a fence committing the greatest crime against humanity is actually Rousseau, not Thoreau. They're in the same tradition.)
Reading Thoreau now, with America's current state, you can see the rot of American individualism in society. In one sense maybe Thoreau was right that we're not close enough to nature, but in another sense America is basically all fences at this point. He had too much faith in the American project, but he was a true believer in it.
On Carver
How form relates to function
Carver's story I really liked too.
Very interesting premise with the blind man. The writing itself is kind of amazing. It's very curt, very short, but it has a really nice rhythm to it, the most like a drumbeat, just quietly moving along. It's interesting to think about how the minimalism of the text relates to the actual thought patterns of the husband. And his eventual epiphany, where all he says is something like, "it was really something." It was almost orgiastic the way the text keeps building and building up to that epiphany moment. So how does the form relate to the function? That's the thought on my mind.
I get the sense that even at the end, the husband can't fully understand what he's experiencing. It's almost like having an orgasm for the first time. You don't really have words to put to it. And maybe that's part of what this whole project is for me -- realigning with the self that was a writer in college, writing essays frequently, being able to watch or listen to a piece of media and have the words to speak intelligently about it instead of just saying "I liked it" or "I didn't."
But the husband also mirrors the blind man by closing his eyes, trying to feel and share a connection with another human. So at those kinds of points, does language even matter? That's an open question. Does the better you can describe something mean you get more out of it, or less?
If you're thinking about Thoreau's knowledge piece, having more language to describe a thing might actually take away from the experience, because you think you know everything and you become blind to what's around you. Whereas you should just be in nature, embracing the change, knowing that what is in nature today is not what is going to be in nature tomorrow. There's a perspective shift there that's worth noting.
On the cathedral as symbol
The fact that it's a cathedral is interesting, because they're not religious, but there's still religious symbolism, which I find I do myself quite often. There's just something about religious symbolism and religious buildings that's impressive. It makes you think of a different era of humanity. We used to actually build cool things. Nowadays it feels like we just build huge glass skyscrapers that are all just different flavors of the same thing. You could say the same about cathedrals, I guess, but cathedrals seem to have so much more weight behind them, so much more majesty.
Maybe it's the religion of capitalism that we built our skyscrapers for, and it's so devoid of any real spirituality that the buildings themselves feel hollow. They're just reflecting the outside world. It's almost like a mirror, instead of a cathedral, which feels like a big stone that comes out of the earth that you walk into and get transported somewhere else.
American individualism, side by side
Frost made me read Thoreau differently. Not at first, but coming back to it, I feel like Frost is, not directly obviously, but critiquing the kind of narrator who believes in the project. Thoreau is self-mythologizing the American character, becoming one with nature, almost like a James Muir type figure. Someone who maybe should be mythologized. But Thoreau's earnestness becomes suspect once you see Frost doing the ironic version of the same impulse.
Both walkers are walking roads, going places. But Thoreau's walker is trying to leave the city behind and not think of anything. Frost's walker is in the woods too, very perceptive of the two roads, but before he's even taken the path he's already self-narrativizing it to the point where he's not in the same mindset as Thoreau's walker. In Frost's poem, choosing one road over the other was basically a matter of impulse. Then the temporal shift at the end turns that impulse into destiny. Frost is making fun of an impulsive choice that gets dressed up as meaning.
Three relationships to language
I don't think Thoreau is making the argument that choice is an artifice. Thoreau is actually trying to provide you with a choice -- get closer to nature, get closer to society. That's where the artifice idea breaks down for him. But Frost's poem is kind of a joke about American individualism in the same breath, because you have the narrator's doubt and wishy-washiness about which path to take, and then his narrative eyes at the very end saying "it has made all the difference." It's an ironic meditation on how impulsiveness gets narrativized. It's a flaw, and then we narrativize it. That's a very American thing.
The cleaner through line is about language itself. Frost mistrusts language, or uses it ironically. With language we can trick ourselves out of believing that all decisions create differences. We can be one linguistic traveler traveling two roads at once, experiencing two meanings. Thoreau, on the other hand, loves language. He pulls from literature a lot, uses writers of antiquity to give weight to his arguments and his individualism, and there's a great-man idea running underneath where these great men wrote and so on. Ironically, he might even undercut his own getting-closer-to-nature argument by being too verbose and romanticizing it too much.
Carver shows another way of using language: not having the language is what actually gets the husband closer to the epiphany. So Frost mistrusts language and shows you how it can trick you. Thoreau loves language and goes a little too hard with it. Carver shows that not having language can be the way through.
The Frost narrator and the deferred-life version of me are doing the same thing. Living in the story you'll tell later instead of the moment you're in. Thoreau and Carver are both saying, in different ways, that you have to actually be here. And there's a tension I want to hold rather than resolve: this whole project is about getting the language back, reclaiming the writer-self who could say more than "I liked it." But the texts themselves are warning that articulation can become its own kind of blindness. Tonight gave me three different answers to that question, and they don't agree.
Instructor Summary
What's working: Genuine analytical instincts. The Frost/Thoreau inversion is not a standard reading. The three-relationships-to-language framework is original. Your personal examples serve as evidence for a real claim. The final paragraph is the strongest critical writing in the entry.
What needs work: The piece discovers its argument on the page instead of leading with it. If you want to develop this into an essay, the thesis should be visible from the opening paragraph.
Recommendations:
- Cut the cathedral section or integrate it into the Carver analysis.
- Eliminate the duplicate Frost/Thoreau comparison. Keep the sharper version.
- Move the personal confession about reclaiming the writer-self to the end.
- Stop asking rhetorical questions you've already answered.
- Quote the texts directly. Frost's "I shall be telling this with a sigh" and Carver's "it was really something" should be on the page.
Linked from
- articulate knowing vs. felt knowing
- cathedrals vs. mirrors
- closed eyes as a way of seeing
- earnest but naive in retrospect
- getting the language back vs. articulation as blindness
- justification dressed as planning
- language as a ceiling on experience
- narrativizing impulse into destiny
- the deferred life
- the myth of American individualism
- three relationships to language
- travel while I'm here
- Cathedral
- The Road Not Taken
- Walking